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Sponge
Marvel
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Posted: 11-02-2008 15:29 |
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Mountain Dew wrote: As it has been mentioned before, the goals of the magician and the skeptic are not mutually exclusive. Therefore trying to entertain an audience WITH magic and then debunking the magic will not work at all. It just ocurred to me that you guys across the pond probably aren't as familiar with Derren Brown's TV and theatre shows as we are in the UK.
He's a great example of how a magician can entertain with magic/mentalism and explain exactly how he achieved it afterwards, it wouldn't work for all magicians but it does for him. Here's his entire "Something Wicked This Way Comes" theatre show complete with his explanation to the audience at the end of the show.
One of his one hour TV specials "Messiah" aired a few years ago, in it he travels to the USA, a country where he was unknown at the time and "takes on a number of different identities to examine how we are able to believe unquestioningly in an idea just because it comes from someone in a position of power and authority".
You can read what he has to say about it here
The show is on Youtube in 8 short clips:
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Derob
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Posted: 11-02-2008 20:12 |
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Thanks for the reference Sponge, I had only seen some clips of this show, whitout the ending effect...
I wonder if he is really 'explaining' his method, though. Has anyone actually ever tried to do an effect using the method he claims to use? Or is it just a story to cover his real method, much like old-time magicians referring to 'wisdom from the east' or 'marvels of science' to explain certain effects, without actually giving away the secret?
Just curious, I'm not attempting to turn this thread in a 'for or against Derren Brown' debate.
For the record: I'm for
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Sponge
Marvel
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Posted: 11-02-2008 22:14 |
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I think the answer is that nobody is really sure how accurate his explanations are but what he does do is show how minds can be manipulated, he has done a similar thing in some of his other TV shows. His book, Tricks Of The Mind was aimed at the general public rather than magicians, explaining some techniques, discussing how they are used in the paranormal industry and his own scepticism.
I'm a fan, what I like about him is that he puts ideas across in a non-confrontational way and invites people to make up their own minds, rather than going flat out to debunk. At the end of the day he's a showman and entertainer but he does gently put a message across for those who want to explore it.
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patrick_differ
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| Joined: | 11-30-1999 |
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Posted: 11-03-2008 03:37 |
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My goal as a magician is to achieve Whit Haydn's Dilemma. Simply stated, his posit is that, at the end of a (trick), the spectator's mind should be reeling between the two points There is no such thing as magic. There is no other way that could have been done. This has been the defining point for me in magic ever since I read of his ideas.
I believe that it is the magician's job to open the doors of metacognative thinking in the minds of the spectators. I want to make them aware of their own thinking and learning process, and how flimsy or strong it may or may not be. I want to leave them with that chilling feeling of having their minds hung out to dry on the horns of this Dilemma. Every trick I do, every routine I develop, and every word I say, while in character, has this goal as its central focus.
When people ask me if my magic is real, it means that they are settling on one side of the dilemma. That is not the goal. I don't want them on one side or the other. I want them right in the middle. I want their minds to ping-pong between the two points for all eternity.
If they ask, I try to get a feeling for where their true beliefs lie, then I steer them towards the other side of their dilemma.
"Is your magic real?" asked the spectator. "Well, we all know that magic isn't really real, don't we?" answered the magician. "Yeah, I know that there's no such thing as magic, but is yours really real?" returned the spectator. "Hmmm," thought the magician, as he realized he had accomplished his goal.
"I know that there's no such thing as magic. It's all tricks!" declared the spectator. "Yes, most people say the same thing, don't they?" responded the magician. "Well, they're right, aren't they?" asked the spectator. "Hmmm," thought the magician, as he realized he had again accomplished his goal.
If I lie to them, and tell them it is real, then I am a charlatan. I am tampering with their belief systems in a not-so-ethical manner. This is no good. I'm pretty sure we agree on this.
If I tell them the truth, and tell them it is just a bunch of tricks, then I undermind what I originally set out to do. I shoot myself in the foot, and I don't reach my goal of playing ping-pong with their brains.
If I dodge the question entirely, then I'm not listening to my audience and would be better of with a hobby like knitting, or model airplane building.
Usually, people who believe that magic is real stand hard against attempts to convince them to believe otherwise. Equally, those who don't believe are hard-pressed to be convinced that it is. Given this, I believe that people believe Magic is as real as they want it to be. Everybody's mind shoots off in a different direction when presented with the impossible, and I like being a part of that, and have no intentions of tampering with it.
With regards to using my knowledge to debunk frauds and charlatans, I'll take that on a case-by-case basis. I will pull out the big guns to shoot the kneecaps off of anybody who tries to defraud my family. That is given. Even though it is a business, and there is a certain predator vs. prey aspect to doing business, I also believe that charlatans and fakes belong in jail. I'd offer testimony if it would ensure that they do. But to barge into a Tarot card reader's business establishment, or break up a good cold reading at a bar or nightclub and cause trouble seems to me a bit much and also very rude. I prefer to watch.
Last edited on 11-03-2008 03:50 by patrick_differ
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