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cosmicplay
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Posted: 11-20-2007 21:00 |
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| Do you think it's ok for a magician to use camera tricks (such as video editing) on a television show? People such as David Blaine, Criss Angel, and Derren Brown all do. I wonder what you guys think.
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Twelvebagger
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Posted: 11-20-2007 21:26 |
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Well, yes and no. I guess I'm not sure on where I stand.
Part of me thinks that it's just another method that they have at their disposal, and as such, it's no different than using a gimmick.
In some ways I think it's harmful, in that the bar we have to measure against has gone up considerably--but in a way it gives us more credibility as live performers for those people that are actually intelligent enough to realize that camera tricks do occur on televised specials.
The part that boggles my mind is how many people are fooled when camera tricks are used. I'm to the point now where, sadly, I don't get any enjoyment out of watching televised magic.
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cosmicplay
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Posted: 11-20-2007 22:06 |
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I guess that rather than saying 'there are no camera tricks' just showing people's reactions substituted for that. People at home assume what they see is the same as what they see, since their reaction is so big.
But yes, I had this exact same thought, isn't it just an extra method?
And yes, it does raise the bar. It does happen that during a performance people refer to Derren Brown who did something amazing on tv..... Last edited on 11-20-2007 22:07 by cosmicplay
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keep_it
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Posted: 11-21-2007 04:31 |
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Many instances in magic the spectator is experiencing something that is different from the audience. Eg, the spoon bent in my hand. People look at that as totally impossible. The spectator is like well i did feel it, i think.....
My point is the TV audience and the spectator on the screen are different. With TV you are trying to fool the TV audience which is different than trying to fool the spectator.
On the other hand, its pointless and cheating. haha
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RolandHenning
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Posted: 11-21-2007 05:34 |
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If the same effect can be done without the camera then yes....
Because the reason why camera edits are used is: "Reconstructability"
Normally we only see an effect once. But with television there is the possibility of looking at the effect again and again. That could spoil the method. In a way that "showing it once" cannot.
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spadesy
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Posted: 11-21-2007 09:23 |
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| These TV magicians are not presenting magic shows. They are presenting entertainment for the screen. So magic is just a component of what they do to gain ratings, in whatever fashion they desire. Unfortunately, money is far more important than art to executives and producers. Besides, would you rather be super-wealthy or a true artist with an axed show?
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cosmicplay
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Posted: 11-21-2007 18:16 |
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RolandHenning wrote:
If the same effect can be done without the camera then yes....
Because the reason why camera edits are used is: "Reconstructability"
Normally we only see an effect once. But with television there is the possibility of looking at the effect again and again. That could spoil the method. In a way that "showing it once" cannot.
I would agree with that. Magic is really not meant to be on a screen, tape recorded, or put on Youtube where people can replay it as often as they desire. Therefore film editing might be used to 'blur' a piece of evidence they might catch when reviewing the video. But magicians are using the editing to a much further degree, ie. showing something very different than what the spectators on the stage are perceiving. For instance, they might have them write down a 4 digit number on papers, then use a secret method to retrieve this information from the papers, edit this whole section out so that the viewers at home only see "He asked them to think of a 4 digit number, and he guessed it right".
We are likely to think "that's cheating", but isn't a DL cheating as well? Any sleight or gaff is in a way cheating, so why not video editing? To me, it simply doesn't feel right, but I can't think of why.
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NicoNaumann
Conjuror
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Posted: 11-25-2007 20:06 |
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I think magic on TV is just another genre which came up with the invention itself.
A while ago it was not that popular to hold lectures of magic in front of an audience. The magicians of that time gained most of thir knowledge of books and for the rest they paid an instructor or mentor. Just with the beginning of lectures the genre 'magic for magicians' came up. In my opinion you can comphere magic on TV with that. It's another genre to perform magic.
To ask for pros or cons here is a bit like asking a coin man for his favourite card routine since non of us has really experience in magic on TV, or am I wrong?
Nico
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Sponge
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Posted: 11-25-2007 20:19 |
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| I wonder how much, or indeed how little influence the performer actually has in the editing process. Copperfield and Derren Brown are big name performers so I'm guessing they have a lot of input into the final product, but how about the young David Blaine for instance?
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intercooled
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Posted: 11-27-2007 17:51 |
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i get so irritated with tv magicians.. i pefrom regularly like 3 days a week... im so sick of hearing... can you walk up a building.. chris angel can..
>:-o....
ok not that i really have anything against him.. i have never seen him in person but frm what i can tell some of these guys are great TV magicians.. i just wounder how they are in real life
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Fantasia
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Posted: 11-28-2007 03:49 |
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| I suppose it is alright to use some camera tricks. But by no means should you post that anything similar to saying that everything you see here tonight is exactly as what you will see as if you were actually here. You know, that little disclaimer. Other than that it's Hollywood effects, but either way using video editing can break a magicians career if the word gets out that is what he/she is doing. But for me, and I am sure many others on here, nothing beats the magic you see in person that can be done live without the use of a camera trick, unless that is part of the trick itself that can be done in front of a live audience as well.
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Paulo
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Posted: 11-28-2007 20:20 |
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FWIW,
I get very annoyed with this type of thing. I am not quite sure why it bothers me, but it really does.
Case in point: Magician performs a trick where a deck of cards are spread face down all over a pool table (with a sealed envelope on the edge of the table). A person selects a pool ball and breaks the rack. The card that the person's selected ball is closest to matches the card in the envelope.
Actually a great trick in principle, but when the magician says something to the effect of "Now I haven't touched that envelope have I?" as he picks it up, it is soooooo obvious that the envelope is in a different location and that it has been handled.
What bothers me about this is that there is no way you could pull off that line in real life without someone saying "Yeah you did. You just had it in your hand and moved it (wherever)." The line is there for the "benefit" of the television audience and in my mind only serves to suck people into believing that the trick is better than it really is. But then again, I guess that is what magic is supposed to do. I still think it’s cheap.
Paul
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spadesy
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Posted: 11-28-2007 22:23 |
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Paul Daniels did a camera trick, but it the magical sense. lol
Paul Zenon took it to the streets, but he never seemed he cheated. Even audiences then were intelligent enough to realise camera tricks could be employed.
Modern television magicians/illusionists use production crews who are really hidden assistants. A perfect television magician is one that works separately in preparing (the magic side of) routines. Apply this rule and it is impossible to cheat with camera and editing tricks and cheats.
The magician shouldn't become the editor, and the director/editor should not become the magician. For example, an excuse to edit down a scene for broadcast reasons is what could ill-perceive the art form.Last edited on 11-28-2007 22:31 by spadesy
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LarryBee
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Posted: 02-04-2009 13:46 |
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for me it depends on what the edit is. Let me explain. As has been mentioned TV is both a very forgiving and unforgiving medium. Take for example a video designed to sell a magic trick. The camera can be set up for optimum angles. Some tricks can only really work on video (eg, the revolving card change, or any of those new age brand of levitations) How many would prefer to perform "Torn" on video rather than real life? But it can also be a cruel mistress. Body loads/steals, pitch and ditches which will work in the real world are more likely to be seen (even if only watched once) on video.
Therefore I am of the opinion that camera tricks and special effects are a no-no. But an edit of something that a real audience would miss in real life but maybe not while watching it on video is allowable (not ideal, but allowable). Watching anything on TV is not as engaging as seeing it in real life so the misdirection caused by one's personality is not as strong.
However, edits on MVD would be very poor form
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