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tedski
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Posted: 12-24-2008 23:31 |
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I can't stand all the submissions of magic that are done to music. Am I the only guy here that doesn't walk around with a DJ everytime I want to perform????
Of course there are exceptions.... a manipulation act to music would be one. Perhaps if the magic was pure eye candy and done so well that it needed no presentation ( but I don't see that on a regular basis).
I would rather watch a performer that doesn't speak english, like Rene Levand, than someone executing sleights to music. In fact, I think you can learn a lot about pacing when watching a performer who speaks a different language.
Now there are folks here that do submit presentations - and I am grateful for that... some are really, really good!!!
But for the love of magic, can we please turn off the music here? I love music, but I think it is used as a crutch to hide behind.
End of rant - Merry Christmas
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tedski
Magician
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Posted: 12-25-2008 16:40 |
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Maybe I was painting with too broad a brush. Of course, if the person has disabilities I would not judge them unfairly. Having said that, I have a freind that is "handicapped" that does phenomenal magic -
In fact, I am not judging anyone in that situation. My observation is that there are many people who post videos who are not is such an unfortunate situation. These are the videos that I am referring to. I think you can see these videos pretty commonplace, and that is what I was pointing out. I do not hate people, and feel bad that you inferred that from my post -sorry for any confusion.
Last edited on 12-25-2008 16:41 by tedski
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Maji1958
Magician
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Posted: 12-25-2008 17:43 |
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Im new to posting on this site and I have to say that the thing I like the most is the open forum... The title says it all...
Everyone has their own opinion and we need to respect it. As they say not everyone like Vanilla.... You also have to take note that when writing something it maybe read as something else..
Music is a great tool but when it over-shadows the effect whats the point? But on the other side it adds to it when its the right music...
Not everyone will agree to what I'm writing but like I said this is an open forum.
I wish everyone a safe New Year!!
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tedski
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Posted: 12-25-2008 17:56 |
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I think you said it better than I did.....
regardless, I am very disapointed that I have been called a racist over what I had said. I have requested this thread to be deleted - words cannot express my disapointment of how this post was described as a message of hate.
Last edited on 12-25-2008 17:57 by tedski
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Maji1958
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Posted: 12-25-2008 18:05 |
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Sorry to see it go but I fully understand!! To try and express and then have it misunderstood!
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Aramis
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Posted: 12-25-2008 18:13 |
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Rodreguez, I have taken the liberty to delete your posts. Mr Tedski is among our most respectable members and I will not stand here as you attack his reputation with your garbage. He has not uttered anything racist or defamatory towards the mentally challenged (which you so respectfully refer to as retards).
I don't know who you are or what it is you want, but blackmailing a member of ours will not get you there, back to the topic please.
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Rodregez
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Posted: 12-25-2008 18:26 |
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| I no understand just because my England is not great you delete my post, I have sent a messge to tedski as you might delete this to. And I say for other people if you disagree with tedsky don't post here as his friend armis will delete you post and try make you look bad and say not truthfull things about blackmail , I disagree with tedsky that all. Goodbye I go join a magic site where you alowed to have an opinion Last edited on 12-25-2008 18:56 by Rodregez
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Sponge
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Posted: 12-25-2008 20:03 |
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Tedski, no need at all to have the thread deleted, you've made a valid observation and it's a topic which has been brought up often in the past. Moves are only a fraction of the performance, presentation, including patter, is the biggest part. Leaving out the audio in a vid and replacing it with music is something I've done in the past though if I knew my patter wasn't up to scratch 
I think people leave out the patter for many different reasons, often because they are inexperienced and don't know what to say, they don't understand about pacing or they find it difficult. It takes a lot of practice to get it right, to not allow the tone of your voice to "tell" when a move is happening for example. It takes a lot of practice to get used to interacting naturally with a camera too. I've seen people write that they've left out sound because the patter was in a foreign language and they thought (mistakenly) it was unnecessary to leave it in.
Sometimes I think it's ok to leave out the patter in a vid, as you've said in a manipulation video, also if you just want advice on a particular move or sequence in a routine. It can be disheartening if you've asked for comments on your EC's for example (and just included rudimentary patter) to be told that you need to work on your patter 
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cardchicanery
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Posted: 12-29-2008 09:22 |
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I can't stand all the submissions of magic that are done to music. Am I the only guy here that doesn't walk around with a DJ everytime I want to perform????
I haven’t been on this site for at least a year or two. One of the reasons I got fed up with looking at and commenting on videos was every time I looked at a video the first comment I wanted to add was, DITCH THE MUSIC AND WORK OUT YOUR PATER!!
I understand if English is not your first language or you may not speak any English at all, it’s hard to know what to do. Personally I would rather hear someone do a routine in there native language. You can still pick up on the inferences.
I looked at a recent vid where the guy did some location type effect with 2 cards. Because there was no emphasis on the selected cards in the beginning, at the end I wasn’t entirely sure I was looking at the selected cards. There was no way to create expectation that the trick was coming to its climax so it just kind of happened. “Just kind of happened” is not the definition of entertainment. One of the reasons you need to have patter with your routine is to guide the audience’s attention. When there was some dead time in the routine, my interest dropped and it took a few seconds for me to get back into the routine and I was much less entertained.
Here is a sad truth. Learning sleights is not that hard. Showing yourself performing sleights gives no indication of your skill as a magician.
Ok if you have not interest in performing magic for any body or are just interested in sleights, no problem. I don’t have anything against that but I do object to wading through an incomplete routine.
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Derob
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Posted: 12-29-2008 11:45 |
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I kind of understand the frustration of seeing many videos with no patter and only music. I see several possible explanations for this:
1. The power of example: when a new member views videos on the site, he will notice that many are accompanied by a piece of music, and some others will have music, with patter added as written text rather than speech. This multitude of videos with no spoken patter sets a sort of example or 'norm' to follow. For the new member, it looks as if this is the way to go, leading him to submit similar videos.
2. Good patter is probably the hardest part of a magic routine, and the least (directly) rewarding IF you are performing only for a video camera.
This second remark breaks down in two sections:
a. Patter is hard
Patter is one of the harder parts to master in a magic routine, as it involves a form of interaction with the audience, breathing, pacing, choice of words, etc... while the technical side of a trick (e.g. the manipulation of an object) is more straightforward to learn and shows immediate results. As a beginner, it appears more rewarding to start off with practicing manipulation skills and forget about patter. I for one feel a bit self conscious when 'practicing' patter when I'm on my own 
Maybe we are a bit too hard on members who post patterless videos, as many of them may be new to magic and eager to show their new skills. If they are really getting into the art and into performing for an audience, developing patter will naturally ensue...
Perhaps as an exercise, we might post some videos relying heavily on patter and with almost no 'technical' manipulation, as a demonstration of the 'power of patter'?
b. Patter is not rewarding when performing for a camera
The point I'm trying to make here is: maybe the many patterless videos are just an artifact, they are generated because of the medium we're working with here: videos made by members, usually sitting in front of a webcam. These conditions almost naturally lead people to focus on the visual (am I flashing? is het fast enough? do I hesitate at some point?) and disregard patter.
It almost takes a conscious effort to even consider including patter in a video. You will find that almost all videos that are shot with an audience are not edited to music, and naturally include patter, which supports the 'artifact' hypothesis...
To sum up, patter is hard, especially for beginners. It takes an effort to include it in a video. Maybe it would not be a bad thing to remind posters in a gentle way to the existence of patter and encourage them to include it in their next video.
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Aramis
Illusionist
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Posted: 12-30-2008 00:25 |
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Hugely important point. When you don't rehearse your patter, your patter will suck and you won't feel like rehearsing it. It's a vicious circle that one can only escape by rehearsing.
I also think a very important point has been made by CardChicanery. Sometimes the problem is language. The author is not confident enough in his English to record in English, and they assume we won't enjoy it if it's in a different language. I always make it a point when I see someone who is obviously french, to tell them I'd love to hear them perform in french.
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GlennLawrence
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Posted: 12-30-2008 15:51 |
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I too find it a bit annoying when effects are done to music that should be done with patter. But also I think these performers miss the point that it's not about the moves. Presentation is the most important element. I have seen many technically awesome magicians who were just completely unwatchable because they had zero presentational skills. Aramis is right when he says that if you don't rehearse you will suck. That means patter as well as the sleights. The other thing that bugs me is when you see pick a card effects on here where no one but the performer is there to pick the card. Seriously, you're in that much of a hurry that you can't grab someone in the house or a friend or someone to actually do the effect for in front of the camera? Not talking about a lot of extra effort here folks....
GL
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TylerErickson
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Posted: 12-31-2008 22:45 |
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G,
You may be overlooking the obvious point that many of the videos we see are not exactly the "first take." 
T
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